Wednesday, July 27, 2011

Tim, The Christian's Rebuttal: Is Science The Only Source Of Truth

Let me begin by saying I am surprised at all the things that we agree on:

1. Yes, you were correct as to my definition of truth, that is, "what is 'real'".  The question, therefore, which I posed can be restated as, "How do we determine what is real?".  The main point of my post, however, was simply that science is not the only way to determine what is real.  Science cannot deal with certain things.  You rejected the love claim. I am not sure that I agree with your analysis, but for the sake of the argument, another example of what science cannot speak to is ethics. It is always and has always been wrong to commit murder (note that I said murder, not kill).  That is an "absolute truth", that is, a truth at all times and in all places.  It is a truth, however, about which science has nothing to say.

Science relies entirely on empiricism.  According to science, the only things that are real are those that we are able to touch, feel, see, and smell.  Empiricism is a valid route to discover truth, at least most of the time (we can always think of times when our senses have failed us).  Empiricism is not foolproof,  however, and it is not all encompassing.  My only point is that it seems to me the atheism relies too heavily on empiricism and does not allow for truth being arrived by any other method.

Will you agree that the scientific method is not the only source of discovering truth?

2. I am thankful that you do not object to my argument that it is false to say that there is no God because He cannot be necessarily proven via the scientific method. I believe, however, that this is a common position among atheists.

3.  We also agree that religion does make claims that can be scientifically proven.  I do, however, reject your example about proving "energy being release upon dying because I have never seen or heard any such claim by Christianity.  Currently I cannot think of an example, but I do think that Christianity probably makes some claims that are provable via the scientific method.

4. You are correct that I am attempting to "have my cake and eat it too" (is that so bad?).  Science is an important tool to arrive at the truth, but it is not the only source.  I do not completely discount science, however, and I believe that science points toward a Designer.  Now, in some of the comments, people have taken issue with that, but I am confused as to why.  All I am saying is that based on the intricacy of the design in nature, it makes it more likely that there was a Designer.  I choose to believe that Designer is what you would call the Christian God, yet, I am not making that claim in this context. All I am saying is that it is more rational than not to believe that Someone or Something designed the world we live in. Neither you or any of the commentators have provided me with an argument that contradicts my argument that it is more rational to believe in a Designer of the world than to believe we came from a primordial soup.

I would close this first round by simply asking, "Can we agree that science is not the only source of truth?"


  1. As a Christian, there are so many things that point to Designer/ Creator from science and life. I am so glad you opened up the debate. There is no way we just "showed up" here or "evolved" over millions of years. That's like saying the classic, "If I stick all these radom parts in a box and shake it up a million times, it will come out a Rolex watch." I have seen EVIDENCE of a God who loves me and wants His best for me throughout my life. I look forward to checking in on more of the discussion.

  2. I'm anxious to move on, as well, I think a comment here is appropriate.

    There are things called "social sciences", which do indeed have something to say about murder. While it may be true that these science are less empirical than, say, physics, they remain science nontheless. Ethics CAN certainly be explained through these social sciences, and can even be shown to have evolved, just as humans have evolved.

    You should get back to me on some scientific claim that christianity makes that can be proven. I'd like to know what you think that is. Off the top of my head, the bible call bats birds. That's at least ONE scientific claim the bible gets wrong.

    I'd like to save the "evolution vs. intellegent design" debate for later. We'll want to take that one over several postings.

    I'm not sure exactly what it is you are suggesting is an alternative way of knowing truth besides science. You say there is one, but I don't think I'm following as to what you are suggesting.

    So I'm afraid we may have to close this round with, "We both agree science can help us describe reality, but we disagree on if there are other methods as well."

  3. Shelly,
    Before throwing the science of evolution out the window. I suggest you watch this simple explanation on what evolution is. And these other videos regarding evolution. Please have an open mind and watch them. You may find them interesting.

    Theory of Evolution in 2 minutes.

    Iguana evolution through geographic Isolation

    Evolution of HIV

    Whale Evolution

  4. This comment has been removed by the author.

  5. (removed comment because of double posting)

  6. Just because you prefer one answer over the other does not make it more rational. Rationality is one of those properties that changes depending on your location in the universe. You do not get to decide something for yourself because you like the way it sounds, or fumble around with the definition until it suits you. That is Christianity, not life.

  7. Another personal account from Shelly.

    "I have seen EVIDENCE of a God who loves me and wants His best for me throughout my life. I look forward to checking in on more of the discussion."

    She had a personal experience. Her personal experience, as interesting as it may be means absolutely nothing in terms of "evidence".

    Its just like the point I brought up earlier about Bigfoot, many have claimed to encountered Bigfoot. I think these people really think that they have seen Bigfoot but Bigfoot's existance has not been proven.

  8. For the record...

    When we get to evolution/creation, I am a Christian who believes in a Creator God AND I believe that evolution is the correct scientific theory.

    I also believe that there is plenty of evidence of God and of Jesus being God's son. But I'll save some of the fun for later.