Ordinarily, this is where I'd make some statement. I don't think there is a need here, because Tim answered his own question right after he asked it.
"You say that we Christians have no "proof" that there is a God. In a sense, that is true. Scientific "proof" for the existence of God may not exist (I think that is debatable, but for the sake of the argument, let's assume that it is true), at least not to your satisfaction."
Yup. Seems you understand the answer very well. You even drive it home with this:
" I do think that a belief in God requires "a leap of faith.""
Well, it seems my work here is done. The atheist simply does not take the leap of faith you do. The atheist prefers to stand on the ground of reason and logic, which is on the other side of the leap you take to believe.
Oh, what the heck. That post is too short. Here goes.
You are trying to shift the burden of proof to the atheist. You cannot. Atheism is the default position. No one is born believing in a god. We are all born atheists. It takes instruction, or indoctrination, to believe in a god. You make the positive claim that god exists. The burden is on you to show this god is real. Without the evidence you admit you do not have, there is no rational reason to believe a god exists.
For example: let's say I claimed to have a dragon in my pants. (Did you read my posts like this on EA?) I can hear it roar. It has smelly breath. I can let you listen to the roar and you can sniff the stink. Have I proved to you I have a dragon in my pants? The roar and smell are observable scientifically. Why don't you think the dragon is real?
Further, let's say I claim all the things you attribute to god are in fact the products of goblins. Goblins tell you what is right and wrong. Goblins put the matter in the universe. Goblins cause pain and love. Prove there are no goblins.
The atheist dismisses your god, and all other gods, deities, and supernatural things, as easily as you dismiss my dragon and the goblins.
If atheism is the default position, then why are they such a minority?
ReplyDeleteLOL, athanasius. Would you believe I just had a conversation with a believer who wanted to convince me that atheism was the majority position? Believers cannot come to a consensus on anything!
ReplyDeleteThe answer to your question, however, is indoctrination. I thought I mentioned that.
"Atheism is the default position. No one is born believing in a god. We are all born atheists. It takes instruction, or indoctrination, to believe in a god."
ReplyDeleteThis is begging the question, you do not know that Atheism is the default position. This is an assumption you can't prove. you do not know that babies can't know God. I would have excepted you to know since you claim to have been Christian before that the Bible says in psalms, that babies have known God while in the their mothers bosoms. For as long humanity has existed, there has been believe in the supernatural, who indoctrinated the very first people?
Tim never said its all faith, yes there is faith involved, but so it in science. Science claims such things macro-evolution, but no one has seen it, science claims multiple dimensions and universes yet no one has seem them, science claims Dark matter, though it can be seen, detected or measured, science claims the hypothetical oort cloud, though no one has seen it. You claim all life came from a primordial soup though it hasn't been demonstrated, you believe all these things on faith and faith alone.
"believers cannot come to a consensus on anything".
jeez anything to attack believers wont ya?. It is called human nature Andrew, or do you in fact know that all Atheists have one consensus? you sounds very ignorant with such comments. People will not agree and have different views on certain things, how does that say anything about just believers. Someone holds a grudge it seems.
Dark matter, though it cant* be seen
ReplyDeleteFor example: let's say I claimed to have a dragon in my pants. (Did you read my posts like this on EA?) I can hear it roar. It has smelly breath. I can let you listen to the roar and you can sniff the stink. Have I proved to you I have a dragon in my pants? The roar and smell are observable scientifically. Why don't you think the dragon is real?
ReplyDeleteThis one is pretty easy, take off your pants and guess what.... "no dragon"
I don't think the "Atheism is the default position." holds up. Your argument seems to be that because it is taught/learned, it can not be the default. But talking/communicating is a default position for humans, but we learn to do it.
ReplyDeleteGlobins...
ReplyDeleteCan Atheists really not see a difference between goblins and the God of the bible? What evidence do you have for goblins? Is there really no evidence at all for the God of the bible? You have a book written over a period of about 1500 years by more than 40 different authors. We also see historical records attached as to proof it correlation, we have Jesus who lived not very long ago and actually fulfilled hundreds of prophecies written in the Old Testament many years before his birth. We have other historians who mention Jesus. We have science that claims the 10 plagues actually happened. We have a surge of Christianity right after Jesus's death and resurrection. All this evidence is hardly the same as mentioning a spaghetti monster of a goblin. In fact, it actually represents how little you understand or how easily you compare a lack of evidence to a huge amount of evidence and regard them as the same.
Andrew, you never awnsered Tim's question. You seem to thing all burden of proof rests on Tim. It dosent. You need to either demolish God, or completly disprove the Bible. You have done none of these things, instead choosing to ignore anything you find difficult and bash what you dislike. Grow up.
ReplyDeleteAndrew, if indoctrination is all you have in response to my question, then that is like saying it is a mass conspiracy throughout all humanity. There is more to it than that.
ReplyDeleteAs for the believer that thought atheism was a majority opinion, you and I both know that isn't true historically or statistically.
No, Athansius, it's less than that. Sheesh, why do you think indoctrination is a conspiracy? It's as simple as parents taking kids to church. That's all.
ReplyDeleteMassive conspiracy, indeed. What crap.